Bishop Mary on the new Archbishop of Canterbury
Interviewer
Now today the Church of England has a brand new leader and senior bishop. Dame Sarah Mullally, the current Bishop of London has her election as the 106th Archbishop of Canterbury confirmed, becoming the first woman to hold the position.
So what does it mean for the future of the Church of England and for everybody? Well, the Bishop of Reading, Rt Revd Mary Gregory, is in the studio with us this morning. Hello.
Bishop Mary
Good morning.
Interviewer
Now, this is all happening today in St Paul's Cathedral and you will be there. What are you expecting?
Bishop Mary
I'm expecting it's a service, but it's a service with some really interesting ancient legal processes where Sarah Mullally has to prove who she is. She has a lawyer representing her and a lawyer who will cross examine her to ensure that she is who she says.
And of course, it goes back to the days when people's photographs weren't all over social media and they had to make sure that they were confirming the correct person to be Archbishop of Canterbury. So quite a lot of pageantry today, I think, a bit of drama, and a service to when she legally becomes the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Interviewer
That's right. And then we have the installation. So I've commentated on a couple of bishop enthronements, but this, and this is happening in a few weeks' time, this isn't going to be an enthronement in March, it is going to be an installation. What's the difference?
Bishop Mary
So she's taking up her seat, she's being installed in her seat in Canterbury Cathedral because that's where she kind of presides from ceremonially. So that is a liturgical moment, a ceremonial moment when she takes up her seat in Canterbury as diocese and bishop there as well. But today is a legal moment when she becomes Archbishop of Canterbury and takes up that role. So from later today she is Archbishop of Canterbury.
Interviewer
Are all the bishops there? I know you'll be there. Will all your colleagues around the UK be there too?
Bishop Mary
I think as many as can be. I think it's a big moment when we want to support her and pray for her in what is an enormously challenging job. I'm expecting to see many of my colleagues there.
Interviewer
She's the current Bishop of London. Understandably, lots of people won't really know very much about her. What sort of a person is she?
Bishop Mary
She's a remarkable person because before ordination she was the Chief Nursing Officer for England and Wales. So she came into the church with remarkable experience in nursing.
And she says to me, really beautiful, that all of her life, all of her adult life, she's been washing people's feet, you know, as a nurse. And then there's a picture of Jesus in the Bible who washes his friend's feet as a sign of service. And that's how she sees herself as somebody who serves, she's wise. She's really humble, actually.
I don't think she sought this, but she responded to what she saw to be a call.
Interviewer
How well do you know her?
Bishop Mary
A little bit. So I've only been a bishop for 11 months yesterday. So I've met her a few times and I have found her a really encouraging person.
When I went to my very first meeting of the College of Bishops, new girl, a little bit intimidated, she found me at lunchtime and she said to me, 'we really want to hear your voice, Mary'. And I think that's true of her. I think she really wants to hear a variety of voices and to listen carefully.
Interviewer
Now the new Archbishop replaces Justin Welby, who was forced to resign over the way that he dealt with a safeguarding scandal. Should we be concerned about how seriously the Church takes these issues?
Bishop Mary
Absolutely you should be concerned, but I think I want to also say we are taking things really seriously. We know that we have made very bad decisions in the past, decisions that have damaged people. I want to say without any reservation, we, I am really sorry about that, and we are learning from those things and honestly we've still got some progress to make, but the state of safeguarding practice in the Church of England now is night and day from where it was.
So we're not complacent, we've got more work to do, we know the damage that we've caused. But things, I think, I can absolutely reassure your listeners that things are in a much better position than they were and we continue to be determined to improve our practice.
Interviewer
Sarah Mullally has been at the centre of accusations herself over her handling of a complaint of abuse. In retrospect, was she the right choice to replace Justin Welby?
Bishop Mary
I think she was and I can say why. She has really owned the fact that people have made complaints. She's encouraging those complaints about her to be looked at carefully and thoroughly. She's been undefended about that. And I think that's a really good sign. She's somebody open to learning, open to own anything that she may have done wrong. I think that's a really healthy sign.
I think we're in problems when people are really defensive and not prepared to accept scrutiny.
Interviewer
The Church recently dismissed the case and the alleged victim responded by saying that Dame Sarah wasn't fit for the job of Archbishop. I wonder if that person has a point.
Bishop Mary
I think that person is obviously speaking out of their own experience and from their own woundedness and you know I think we listen to them. I mean honestly I don't know the details of the case. I think we have to accept that the process has been looked at whilst also still understanding. why that survivor feels so strongly. I don't want to dismiss their voice.
Interviewer
No, I'm sure. The betrayal of the Christian gospel was what the complainant's reaction was to the dismissal of the accusations. All of this though, and I know you don't want to go into it, and this is not the arena for that anyway, but let's look at the impression that gives people. None of this is a good look, is it?
Bishop Mary
I think it's very difficult, but I think there is so much good also that she brings to the role. And I want to listen to that voice and I don't want to dismiss it in any way, but also to say that there are many other really warm, good, wise qualities that she brings to the role.
Interviewer
Well, in a statement last year, Dame Sarah said it was clear that a complaint made against her in 2020 was not properly dealt with. She said she was seeking assurance that processes have been strengthened to ensure any complaint that comes into Lambeth Palace is responded to in a timely and satisfactory manner.
Let's move on to something else which is very evident and that's that Dame Sarah Mullally will be the very first female Archbishop of Canterbury. As a female bishop, how important is that for you personally?
Bishop Mary
Do you know, I think it's really important for me. I mean, when I, we got an advance notice of who the announcement was going to be a few months ago, and I was scanning through the letter, and I saw the word 'her' and I was like, my goodness, and I had to scan further to see the name of the person.
I think it's really important for people like me, more for women of a younger generation, know, girls, young women. It's really important for people to see that these roles are opening up to women for the first time in 106 incumbencies.
Interviewer
I mean, the Church of England needs to be taken notice of. We know that congregations compared with 40 or 50 years ago are tiny now. You need more people on the pews, if indeed pews still exist in lots of churches. Many don't, of course. Will she do that by being a woman? Will she do that? Or will we in six months' time not even be talking about the fact that she's a woman?
Bishop Mary
I think there will continue to be some conversation about the fact that she's a woman, partly because the Church of England is still not of one mind about women's ministry, and so -
Interviewer
And that's remarkable after more than 30 years.
Bishop Mary
It is remarkable, but there are people who hold theological positions which wouldn't allow for the leadership of women or for women presiding at Holy Communion. So I think it will continue to be a conversation. And also she has an international role. She's first amongst equals in the Anglican Communion worldwide. And some of the provinces of the Anglican Communion don't ordain women as priests even. I think it will continue to be a matter of conversation.
But I think there's something about leading like a woman. And that is what I see her doing. So we had the College of Bishops last week. She gave some introductory comments and she was appropriately vulnerable about her situation.
Interviewer
Appropriately vulnerable? What does that mean?
Bishop Mary
Well, I think that some leaders can be always kind of put on quite a front, be always very front-footed.
Interviewer
Bit macho?
Bishop Mary
Yes, a bit macho. And I think there's a way of leading out of your humanity, and I think that's what she's going to do. And I think there's something very important as a Christian, I would say very Christ-like about that. And I think if she can lead in a different way, that will show a different face of the Church of England. I'm excited about that.
Interviewer
We need to know if you either at this point or perhaps later on today will invite her to Berkshire.
Bishop Mary
Absolutely. I mean probably not today because I reckon she's going to be surrounded.
Interviewer
She might be slightly busy, you're right.
Bishop Mary
But yeah we would love to have her here of course.
Interviewer
Where would you take her first on a visit?
Bishop Mary
That is such a good question. Do you know I would want to take her to the Refugee Centre in Reading because I think that our job as the Church of England is to care for people who are kind of outside as well as inside. I think that has to be our focus. So that's where I would take her first. It's a great place.
Interviewer
And of course, Reading Minster, because we last met, of course, at the Carol Service in December. That is a wonderful gem, think, of the entire, not just of Reading, but the entire county.
Bishop Mary
It is. But I think that we've got some surprising places that we can go to as well. Yeah, I love Reading Minster, though. It's my home from home.
Interviewer
It's nice to see you. Thank you very much indeed for coming into the studio.
Bishop Mary
My pleasure.
Interviewer
Brilliant. So early in the morning. You're heading off to St Paul's Cathedral soon, so we won't delay you any more. Great to see you, thank you so much for coming in.
Bishop Mary
Thank you.